NON-DUALITY
My Original Post and Comment To Vincent's Video (Below)
I also posted this comment on the Full Circle Group.
**My Comment On Youtube To Vincent's Video (Start)**
Very good Vincent. Emptiness is Form and Form is Emptiness. Nothing is everything and everything is nothing. This is timely because just last night I was again pondering how quantum mechanics comes to the same conclusion (I used to teach physics and love pondering the connection between quantum mechanics and nonduality) Interestingly there are two main interpretation lines in quantum mechanics right now.
1 - Copenhagen Interpretation - orthodox. (Heisenberg had the best understanding I feel)
2 - Many Worlds interpretation of Hugh Everett - popular with many leading thinkers today.
1) [Copenhagen] Here is the punchline applying it to the Universe. In the orthodox approach, according to Werner Heisenberg, this universal wavefunction would be a superposition of all possibilities. Nothing exists until measured or observed and upon observation the likelihood of a "seen" result is calculated by the Born rule (amplitude squared for each possibility gives its probability for "occuring"). But here is the rub. What Heisenberg called Potentia is this quantum spectrum of possibilities that don't have an actual existence until measured or observed. THIS is the source of the weirdness of quantum mechanics. Electron cloud models of the atom are NOT the electron "smeared out" around the atom in the various geometries seen in chemistry book orbitals, rather they are pure weighted probabilities of the likehood of an electron being "seen" upon measurement at a particular location. But before measurement, the electron DOES NOT EXIST! Take this to the universal or multiverse wavefunction (being One without second), before observation, the Universe does not exist! AND because there is nothing OUTSIDE the wavefunction of the universe, there is no last looker to collapse it! That is, the universe does not really exist. Form is truly EMPTINESS! Everything is nothing. Any collapse or creation is an illusion seen by an illusory separate self.
2) The many worlds interpretation, basically takes all these superposition states at face value. The mathematics is IDENTICAL, the interpretation is literally the diametric opposite. In this model each superposition state ACTUALLY EXISTS, so what you get is a multiverse where every possibility is playing out in parallel dimensions. But there is no quantum collapse, every moment the universe keeps branching into other universes dictated by the same laws of quantum mechanics. Here the weighted probabilities point to actual universes, not just possibilities. In the electron example, the electron simultaneously exists in all its possible states in parallel realities. Here EVERYTHING exists! Emptiness is Infinite Forms. Nothing is Everything. And it is worth noting due to quantum entanglement, everything is interconnected in BOTH models. There is just One without a second, but it is interesting that like the toy in the video, quantum mechanics like nonduality can be seen from two perspectives. To me nondual understandings of ultimate reality bring in clarity to the mystery of quantum mechanics which itself is nondual as stated above. But, like quantum mechanics, nondual philosophy is very counterintuitive, because the world seems very much dictated by common sense Newtonian or Classical physics, much like Realism philosophy (which are both inherently dualistic). But this worldview has been disproven now for over a century. The universe is Quantum and Nondual to the core! Ultimately I think both Nonduality and quantum mechanics can only "truly" be understood by "waking up" to this illusion of separation.
To clarify a little (hopefully..lol) If there is only One interconnected everything, then because of its interconnectedness, and because there is nothing outside of It (Being One without a second), there is no thing or nothing to be "seen". This is because there is no vantage point to see the whole as a thing, because such a vantage point would predicate something outside of the whole, which is not possible (to be outside of everything). In quantum mechanics the wavefunction of the universe is this everything, and because it is not a subsystem of some greater system, there is not vantage point to observe or measure this whole, therefore, it does not exist, except as both nothing and everything (emptiness is form and form is emptiness). To me this quantum/nondual logic is sound and somehow makes sense, yet it also does not make sense (probably because Mr Bryant the illusory ego still is here..haha). I think direct experience is truly needed to understand both nonduality and quantum mechanics. But the mathematical logic of quantum mechanics is better than dualistic words, so it is a step in the right direction (quantum computers/quantum logic > Newtonian/Classical Boolean Logic). It is fun writing all this because in a way quantum mechanics is one big Zen KOAN...lol.
** (END Comment)**
I also posted this comment on the Full Circle Group.
**My Comment On Youtube To Vincent's Video (Start)**
Very good Vincent. Emptiness is Form and Form is Emptiness. Nothing is everything and everything is nothing. This is timely because just last night I was again pondering how quantum mechanics comes to the same conclusion (I used to teach physics and love pondering the connection between quantum mechanics and nonduality) Interestingly there are two main interpretation lines in quantum mechanics right now.
1 - Copenhagen Interpretation - orthodox. (Heisenberg had the best understanding I feel)
2 - Many Worlds interpretation of Hugh Everett - popular with many leading thinkers today.
1) [Copenhagen] Here is the punchline applying it to the Universe. In the orthodox approach, according to Werner Heisenberg, this universal wavefunction would be a superposition of all possibilities. Nothing exists until measured or observed and upon observation the likelihood of a "seen" result is calculated by the Born rule (amplitude squared for each possibility gives its probability for "occuring"). But here is the rub. What Heisenberg called Potentia is this quantum spectrum of possibilities that don't have an actual existence until measured or observed. THIS is the source of the weirdness of quantum mechanics. Electron cloud models of the atom are NOT the electron "smeared out" around the atom in the various geometries seen in chemistry book orbitals, rather they are pure weighted probabilities of the likehood of an electron being "seen" upon measurement at a particular location. But before measurement, the electron DOES NOT EXIST! Take this to the universal or multiverse wavefunction (being One without second), before observation, the Universe does not exist! AND because there is nothing OUTSIDE the wavefunction of the universe, there is no last looker to collapse it! That is, the universe does not really exist. Form is truly EMPTINESS! Everything is nothing. Any collapse or creation is an illusion seen by an illusory separate self.
2) The many worlds interpretation, basically takes all these superposition states at face value. The mathematics is IDENTICAL, the interpretation is literally the diametric opposite. In this model each superposition state ACTUALLY EXISTS, so what you get is a multiverse where every possibility is playing out in parallel dimensions. But there is no quantum collapse, every moment the universe keeps branching into other universes dictated by the same laws of quantum mechanics. Here the weighted probabilities point to actual universes, not just possibilities. In the electron example, the electron simultaneously exists in all its possible states in parallel realities. Here EVERYTHING exists! Emptiness is Infinite Forms. Nothing is Everything. And it is worth noting due to quantum entanglement, everything is interconnected in BOTH models. There is just One without a second, but it is interesting that like the toy in the video, quantum mechanics like nonduality can be seen from two perspectives. To me nondual understandings of ultimate reality bring in clarity to the mystery of quantum mechanics which itself is nondual as stated above. But, like quantum mechanics, nondual philosophy is very counterintuitive, because the world seems very much dictated by common sense Newtonian or Classical physics, much like Realism philosophy (which are both inherently dualistic). But this worldview has been disproven now for over a century. The universe is Quantum and Nondual to the core! Ultimately I think both Nonduality and quantum mechanics can only "truly" be understood by "waking up" to this illusion of separation.
To clarify a little (hopefully..lol) If there is only One interconnected everything, then because of its interconnectedness, and because there is nothing outside of It (Being One without a second), there is no thing or nothing to be "seen". This is because there is no vantage point to see the whole as a thing, because such a vantage point would predicate something outside of the whole, which is not possible (to be outside of everything). In quantum mechanics the wavefunction of the universe is this everything, and because it is not a subsystem of some greater system, there is not vantage point to observe or measure this whole, therefore, it does not exist, except as both nothing and everything (emptiness is form and form is emptiness). To me this quantum/nondual logic is sound and somehow makes sense, yet it also does not make sense (probably because Mr Bryant the illusory ego still is here..haha). I think direct experience is truly needed to understand both nonduality and quantum mechanics. But the mathematical logic of quantum mechanics is better than dualistic words, so it is a step in the right direction (quantum computers/quantum logic > Newtonian/Classical Boolean Logic). It is fun writing all this because in a way quantum mechanics is one big Zen KOAN...lol.
** (END Comment)**
Vincent Replied On Youtube to My Comment ("in black as Vincent #1"):
Vincent #1: Thank you for your explanations of both the Copenhagen and Many Worlds interpretation. I do not have background in quantum physics, but have, like you, marveled at the parallels between quantum physics (especially the Copenhagen interpretation) and non-duality (and Buddhism). I remember reading two books many decades ago: The Dancing Wu Li Masters by Gary Zukov, and Shifting Worlds, Changing Minds by Jeremy Hayward. The weakness of the Many Worlds interpretation is that it assumes all possible 'worlds' exist independent of the observer, whereas the Copenhagen interpretation specifically requires an observer for the quantum wave function to collapse.
Bryant #1 (Reply to Vincent Above): Interestingly Dr David Finklestein who was my mentor at Georgia Tech who knew Gary and wrote the preface to Dancing Wu Li Masters. I remember him telling me he really liked Gary, but there were some flaws in his reasoning...lol.
I agree with the Many World's Interpretation being unsatisfactory by itself, but here it is NOT 2 with the Copenhagen. Like your hand - form and emptiness, the two are different sides to the same nondual coin. Taking IT alone as THE interpretation would be like saying everything is form, or everything is emptiness. Also realize from a Einsteinian Bloch universe perspective, this many world Multiversal TREE is one undivided whole, that taken as a whole there is no observer "outside" of it, being One without a second. But the math works perfectly for many worlds models as it does for copenhagen. And an observer is very much needed to follow a particular branch in the many worlds model even if there is no collapse. I like consciousness- based copenhagen interpretations if pressed to choose one as it seems many worlds interpretation (taken alone) violates basic Occam's razor (the whole universe keeps reproducing itself at every branch).
And exactly an "I", Ego or focus of consciousness IS needed to collapse the wavefunction in the Copenhagen interpretation. But here is the rub, ONLY in a subsystem can the wavefunction collapse and each observer is part of a larger subsystem that is STILL in quantum superposition (not collapsed). This is the Wigner's friend paradox, because then you can have someone observe that larger subsystem that includes observer #1. But if you take this all the way up to God or Brahman or Tao or Universal Consciousness (pick your word of choice), there is no last looker to collapse or branch anything (in both models). So any collapse or branch is just an illusion in whatever local subsystem that the observer is measuring/looking/observing. Ultimately NOTHING is collapsed, and nothing ever happens (an interesting conclusion of loop quantum gravity when you apply quantum mechanics to general relativity). Truly the universe is nondual to the core, and any collapsing wavefunction in a local area needs an I or ego to collapse it!
Vincent #1 (Cont): The paradox of non-duality in the context of quantum physics is that that which collapses the wave function itself exists as part of the collapsed wave function. The materialist (physicalist) view of consciousness holds that consciousness arises as a result of neural networks; whereas, the alternate view posits that consciousness is a priori. Neither is correct. I believe it was Niels Bohr who once wrote that the observer and the observed co-arise in a mutually creative fashion. Thus, neither exists without the other, which is the paradox. Consciousness (awareness) is unit (body) dependent; but the unit cannot be perceived without consciousness. This is why the statement "Form is emptiness; emptiness is form" is so paradoxical and profound.
Bryant #1 (in reply to Vincent Above): Yes I agree and beautifully said! The Observer and Observed arise and disappear together. You cannot have one without the other. Ramana Maharshi points this out over and over. When this "I-thought" arises like every morning, the me and the world around the me arise together. In deep sleep they both dissolve together. Quantum mechanics points to the same conclusion. Without a conscious observer, the universe remains in a nondual superposition state where nothing really exists and nothing is happening.
My only disagreement may be that consciousness can still exist like in deep dreamless sleep, but this depends on how you define consciousness. I would preface for clarity that nondual consciousness always remains. Even when the movie stops playing the screen still remains. But if you mean consciousness of "I" a separate self than 100% I agree.
Vincent #1 (Cont): The key is to stop trying to understand non-duality with the mind and to directly realize (experience) the non-dual nature of existence and non-existence (as you stated in your next post). This is why the practices of Buddhism, non-duality, and other mystical lineages are so important.
Bryant #1 (in reply to Vincent Above): I also agree! I was just having this conversation with a sage Peter Ragnar. To me quantum mechanics is like a big Zen Koan, while it is still mindstuff, it helps the mind to collapse in on itself because of the beautiful paradoxes it illuminates about ultimate reality. I personally have been meditating for 25 years and practice self inquiry of Ramana Maharshi daily (with some japa for devotion) and 100% agree that these practices are the key! Quantum mechanics for me is a fun and playful koan. I like reading nonfiction and learning things over fiction, and QM is one of my favorite subjects to read (along with nonduality and energy medicine - what I mainly do for a living).
Vincent #1 (Cont): Anyway, thank you for your comment. There are so many interesting aspects of quantum physics and its correlates with Buddhism and non-duality that we can discuss, but my reply is already too long.
Thanks for you reply and videos! I really loved this video you did that I commented on.
Vincent #1: Thank you for your explanations of both the Copenhagen and Many Worlds interpretation. I do not have background in quantum physics, but have, like you, marveled at the parallels between quantum physics (especially the Copenhagen interpretation) and non-duality (and Buddhism). I remember reading two books many decades ago: The Dancing Wu Li Masters by Gary Zukov, and Shifting Worlds, Changing Minds by Jeremy Hayward. The weakness of the Many Worlds interpretation is that it assumes all possible 'worlds' exist independent of the observer, whereas the Copenhagen interpretation specifically requires an observer for the quantum wave function to collapse.
Bryant #1 (Reply to Vincent Above): Interestingly Dr David Finklestein who was my mentor at Georgia Tech who knew Gary and wrote the preface to Dancing Wu Li Masters. I remember him telling me he really liked Gary, but there were some flaws in his reasoning...lol.
I agree with the Many World's Interpretation being unsatisfactory by itself, but here it is NOT 2 with the Copenhagen. Like your hand - form and emptiness, the two are different sides to the same nondual coin. Taking IT alone as THE interpretation would be like saying everything is form, or everything is emptiness. Also realize from a Einsteinian Bloch universe perspective, this many world Multiversal TREE is one undivided whole, that taken as a whole there is no observer "outside" of it, being One without a second. But the math works perfectly for many worlds models as it does for copenhagen. And an observer is very much needed to follow a particular branch in the many worlds model even if there is no collapse. I like consciousness- based copenhagen interpretations if pressed to choose one as it seems many worlds interpretation (taken alone) violates basic Occam's razor (the whole universe keeps reproducing itself at every branch).
And exactly an "I", Ego or focus of consciousness IS needed to collapse the wavefunction in the Copenhagen interpretation. But here is the rub, ONLY in a subsystem can the wavefunction collapse and each observer is part of a larger subsystem that is STILL in quantum superposition (not collapsed). This is the Wigner's friend paradox, because then you can have someone observe that larger subsystem that includes observer #1. But if you take this all the way up to God or Brahman or Tao or Universal Consciousness (pick your word of choice), there is no last looker to collapse or branch anything (in both models). So any collapse or branch is just an illusion in whatever local subsystem that the observer is measuring/looking/observing. Ultimately NOTHING is collapsed, and nothing ever happens (an interesting conclusion of loop quantum gravity when you apply quantum mechanics to general relativity). Truly the universe is nondual to the core, and any collapsing wavefunction in a local area needs an I or ego to collapse it!
Vincent #1 (Cont): The paradox of non-duality in the context of quantum physics is that that which collapses the wave function itself exists as part of the collapsed wave function. The materialist (physicalist) view of consciousness holds that consciousness arises as a result of neural networks; whereas, the alternate view posits that consciousness is a priori. Neither is correct. I believe it was Niels Bohr who once wrote that the observer and the observed co-arise in a mutually creative fashion. Thus, neither exists without the other, which is the paradox. Consciousness (awareness) is unit (body) dependent; but the unit cannot be perceived without consciousness. This is why the statement "Form is emptiness; emptiness is form" is so paradoxical and profound.
Bryant #1 (in reply to Vincent Above): Yes I agree and beautifully said! The Observer and Observed arise and disappear together. You cannot have one without the other. Ramana Maharshi points this out over and over. When this "I-thought" arises like every morning, the me and the world around the me arise together. In deep sleep they both dissolve together. Quantum mechanics points to the same conclusion. Without a conscious observer, the universe remains in a nondual superposition state where nothing really exists and nothing is happening.
My only disagreement may be that consciousness can still exist like in deep dreamless sleep, but this depends on how you define consciousness. I would preface for clarity that nondual consciousness always remains. Even when the movie stops playing the screen still remains. But if you mean consciousness of "I" a separate self than 100% I agree.
Vincent #1 (Cont): The key is to stop trying to understand non-duality with the mind and to directly realize (experience) the non-dual nature of existence and non-existence (as you stated in your next post). This is why the practices of Buddhism, non-duality, and other mystical lineages are so important.
Bryant #1 (in reply to Vincent Above): I also agree! I was just having this conversation with a sage Peter Ragnar. To me quantum mechanics is like a big Zen Koan, while it is still mindstuff, it helps the mind to collapse in on itself because of the beautiful paradoxes it illuminates about ultimate reality. I personally have been meditating for 25 years and practice self inquiry of Ramana Maharshi daily (with some japa for devotion) and 100% agree that these practices are the key! Quantum mechanics for me is a fun and playful koan. I like reading nonfiction and learning things over fiction, and QM is one of my favorite subjects to read (along with nonduality and energy medicine - what I mainly do for a living).
Vincent #1 (Cont): Anyway, thank you for your comment. There are so many interesting aspects of quantum physics and its correlates with Buddhism and non-duality that we can discuss, but my reply is already too long.
Thanks for you reply and videos! I really loved this video you did that I commented on.
Vincent #2 Below is the Reply in one email to all my Above Reply (Bryant #1) in RED:
**Vincent #2 (Start)**- He replied to my last email all in one response (Vincent #2 Below).
Thank you Bryant!
I don’t know enough about QM or either of the interpretations mentioned. Both are merely schemas created by human consciousness in an attempt to understand the universe. Whether one or both operate is beyond ‘me’ (pun intended). Neither, however, attempts to explain consciousness, which others, such as David Chalmers, have attempted to do with respect to the “hard problem” of consciousness.
Bryant #2 (in response to Vincent Above Black): Yes, true, they are schemas or perhaps better stated, they are maps we use to understand our universe at the fundamental level. In my opinion (which I got from my mentor David Finkelstein) the vector algebra of QM (quantum logic) is logically closer than language (boolean or classical logic of classical physics) to naturally explaining ultimate reality. Quantum mechanics is the most successful theory science has ever discovered and has not been falsified to this day. IN FACT, you could say QM is deeper than physics resting just above mathematics as kinda an OS of the physical sciences. To "quantize" is to port any physical theory to this better quantum logic operating system (which is on full display in quantum computers).
Interestingly when you add the imaginary numbers you allow the superposition states and spontaneity, and the phase factor connects all the elements in the quantum system under study via entanglement. We have no way to use natural language to express the richness of the quantum universe.
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above):Now you are going beyond my understanding of QM. Remember, however, that any perspective developed by these limited minds are themselves limited. Moreover, continuing with the earlier ‘interface’ description, what we observe through our senses and measuring instruments or develop with our mathematics is limited as well.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Yes but some logic structures are perhaps better at explaining things than others. But basically I see what you are saying.
**Vincent #2 (Start)**- He replied to my last email all in one response (Vincent #2 Below).
Thank you Bryant!
I don’t know enough about QM or either of the interpretations mentioned. Both are merely schemas created by human consciousness in an attempt to understand the universe. Whether one or both operate is beyond ‘me’ (pun intended). Neither, however, attempts to explain consciousness, which others, such as David Chalmers, have attempted to do with respect to the “hard problem” of consciousness.
Bryant #2 (in response to Vincent Above Black): Yes, true, they are schemas or perhaps better stated, they are maps we use to understand our universe at the fundamental level. In my opinion (which I got from my mentor David Finkelstein) the vector algebra of QM (quantum logic) is logically closer than language (boolean or classical logic of classical physics) to naturally explaining ultimate reality. Quantum mechanics is the most successful theory science has ever discovered and has not been falsified to this day. IN FACT, you could say QM is deeper than physics resting just above mathematics as kinda an OS of the physical sciences. To "quantize" is to port any physical theory to this better quantum logic operating system (which is on full display in quantum computers).
Interestingly when you add the imaginary numbers you allow the superposition states and spontaneity, and the phase factor connects all the elements in the quantum system under study via entanglement. We have no way to use natural language to express the richness of the quantum universe.
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above):Now you are going beyond my understanding of QM. Remember, however, that any perspective developed by these limited minds are themselves limited. Moreover, continuing with the earlier ‘interface’ description, what we observe through our senses and measuring instruments or develop with our mathematics is limited as well.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Yes but some logic structures are perhaps better at explaining things than others. But basically I see what you are saying.
**Vincent #2 (CONT)**: However, I don’t believe that an ‘I’ or ego is necessary for the collapse of the wave function, but rather any receiving organism that exists collapses the wave function to the extent that the apparent receptors of the organism allow. I like to think of these apparent human bodies as interfaces (thank you, Don Hoffman) that collapse the wave function in a very particular way based on physiology (i.e., limited range of electro-magnetic spectrum, etc.) As Donald Hoffman discussed, all life forms have their own interface, which affects how the universe collapses and is perceived. Dogs, earthworms, trees, bats, etc. All have different interfaces. Consequently, his perspective allows for paranormal experiences and even near-death or post-death like experiences. When the interface changes, perception/awareness changes. (I am reminded of a Zen story. A monk asked his teacher, “is there life after death?” The teacher replied, “I don’t know, I’m not dead yet.”)
Bryant #2 (in response to Vincent #2 Above): (This is indeed a hot topic of debate. Were the first RNA replicators able to collapse the wavefunction? Or the first organelle, cell, organism , etc. I have read some books on quantum evolution and quantum biology that have some very interesting insights.
Is a self consciousness needed which perhaps is displayed also in some higher mammals like apes and dolphins? I don't think anyone knows.
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above):Now we get into the realm of philosophy (and spirituality): to me, the entire perceived phenomenological universe is shunyata perceiving itself in all its myriad forms. Why would human beings be unique here? At least here on earth, we are all parts of the planet (which is part of the universe) sharing, to one extent or another, specific interfaces. For example, the squirrels and birds in my yard are aware of my presence (as well as the presence of my cat). Thus, there are aspects of each interface that overlap, like different cells in the body having unique functions, but part of a whole. This is why my own limited human mind believes that all life forms have their own particular interface that collapses the wave function differently, but in concert (unision) with (I like the symphonic metaphor here - different players with different instruments combine to produce a symphony) each other. After all, all life forms (which we perceive through our own interface) are this planet and this universe. (This was also my direct experience when awakening occurred, to the extent that no one actually had an experience. Rather, what was experienced [so to speak, given that there was no one to experience anything] was an ego-free moment.)
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Ok here I do see what you are saying, but do bugs and animals perceive a subject-object duality? I might concede that perhaps some highly developed mammals like Chimps and Dolphins very well may, perhaps even my dog. The way I see it, most animals, reptiles, bugs and birds are more in an unconscious sahaja state, with no real sense of a separate self.
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): I agree.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above):As such for them there is no subject object duality like an Ego experiences. And quantum collapse is precisely creating an objective manifestation which requires this duality from a self referent consciousness (consciousness turning back on itself or contracting to create a me, I , apparent person, etc).
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above) : Here is where I disagree. Assuming for now separate (but not independent) existence of all life forms, each collapses the QM in their own way. Ego consciousness is not required. Birds can recognize and respond to threats (e.g., my cat) and food sources (bird seed). Thus, for them, the wave function has collapsed in a very particular manner that, for most earthly based life forms sharing this particular electromagnetic spectrum, overlaps and allows for biological and evolutionary survival.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above):Are cells self referent? I guess you could define that differently, but the whole illusion of separation from my understanding comes from the me or ego.
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): Yes. The illusion of separation comes from the ego. But the ego itself is but an illusion. We are all living in a state of non-duality, including all life forms (and, perhaps all non-life forms). It is only when we think about it that that sense of non-duality disappears.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above):Even kids according to developmental psychologists do not get a sense of a separate self until a certain number of months (I read 5 months in one paper). They remain connected mainly to the mother and surroundings. So infants too I would say are not collapsing the wavefunction because they have no sense of a separate self.
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): Again, no separate sense of self is needed to collapse the wave function. All organisms do that and create their time-based (in various degrees) experience as living creatures (see our discussion in the article I sent you along with some of those we cited). I’ve also attached a draft of asection of a much larger but unpublished theory paper.
Again, I highly recommend Donald Hoffman’s book.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above):Now ultimately there is no collapse as we are always in a superposition in a greater subsystem of the whole. That is the Von Neumann chain of subsystems keeps going up and up to embrace the whole Kosmos. That is whatever you call a collapse can be an entangled superposition state from a larger vantage point, carrying it to the whole leaves no collapse.
In my understanding, the Ego, I, Me or the apparent Person carves out a subsystem every morning when it wakes up collapsing non duality into duality with the "I thought" or Ego coming back online after deep sleep..haha. I am not denying lower animals have an interface and interact with their surroundings, but they do so with no ego or sense of a separate self referential I/me, and as such do not experience subject - object duality and therefore there is no collapse.
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): Ah, here is the distinction, which is the collapse of the wave function is not the same as having a sense of being a separate self. All animals, being localized in space and time collapse the quantum continuum in their own manner, regardless of whether their is an ego or I thought. This is what we discussed in the attached file.
But yes, I agree, it is the I thought that creates a sense of separation (of duality). All organisms, whether conscious or not, recognize threats in their environment. For organisms without an ego, there is still perception of and reaction to what apparently takes place in their field of awareness (i.e., “the environment”). Thus, in order to do so, the wave function must have collapsed. But the sense of separation (of a witness observing a world “out there”; of observer and observed; of self and others) appears to be, arguable, a uniquely human function. For most other organisms (and humans, when it occurs), perception, awareness, and behavior still happens even when there is no “I”.
(I recall many years ago listening to a Green Bay Packers football game. Bret Favre was the QB and he seemed to be operating at another level: e.g., hitting all receivers, avoiding the pass rush, etc. It was John Madden who stated that “Bret Favre is unconscious.” He wasn’t unconscious as we normally think, but in a non-dual state - still able to perceive and act; but without a sense of self. This is possible for everyone, which is what non-dual and Buddhist teachers have taught.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): I am not claiming to be right, this is just what makes sense to me for now. I seems to me you are taking a more orthodox stance on collapse in quantum evolution/quantum biology that I have read where even cells can be self referential.
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): As for whether cells, sub-atomic particles, the wave functions themselves, or the entire universe has some sense of self is way beyond me. However, I am open to such possibilities. After all, from a non-dual perspective, all that is perceived and imagined (i.e., universe and awareness) are neither, none, one, nor many.
There is a great Zen koan to meditate on; The many return to the one; where does the one return to?
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): How we define that or what is needed to collapse that wavefunction is perhaps the stumbling block here. In my opinion having a sensory interface is not enough, what is needed is the illusory sense of an ego or separate self. Surely you cannot think worms have a sense of being a separate self, right?
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): No, I do not believe that they do. But who knows. But see my comments above: they have collapsed the wave function in their own particular way. Otherwise they wouldn’t behave as earthworms do. (Of course, what we perceive to be earthworms might not be how their lives are actually experienced.)
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): But as Ramana says, when you wake up each morning it is YOUR I AM or Ego that is collapsing the wavefunction of your perceived dream reality.
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above): I disagree with your interpretation here of what Ramana taught (unless you consider the act of any organism to be aware of its surroundings a form of “I am”.) To me, “I am” is what creates separation between me and you; self and others. The “I am” is what creates the idea of a universe 'out there' AND an organism ‘over here'. Prior to “I am” there is just the universe/shunyata experiencing itself through these receiving mechanisms, including approach and avoidance motivation (e.g., approach positively valent stimuli [e.g., food] and avoid negatively valent stimuli [e.g., predators].
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): I actually agree here? That is just it, do animals, infants and worms have an "I am" or a sense of a separate? I think not, but again I could be wrong. The question is WHERE in evolution does this occur? Perhaps with an evolved neocortex? I don't know? But I of course concede highly developed mammalian brains are very likely able to cognize a sense of a separate self (Dolphins and Chimps come to mind).
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): The “I am” creates separation. Yes. Here’s another way to approach this. The sense of self is an illusion. The ‘me’ doesn’t exist except as a thought. But, as discussed above, perception, awareness, and action still occur; but do so without separation. As Fred Davis always says, “Oneness is not sameness."
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): And in dreams as you say (or near death experiences) we seem to have a different interface, but it is still this "I AM" or ego attaching itself to another dream body. I have been pondering my dreams a lot lately and it is incredibly insightful as I see myself as a separate character in a dream world with many other characters, but when I "wake up" , I realize it was all in my consciousness. Does my kitchen exist when I am sleeping in deep at night? Quantum mechanics says NO. What you have is a well defined wavefunction that is relatively stable because of its mass, but it still doesn't exist until seen by a conscious observer.
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above): This perspective does not take into account all the other organisms that perceive the kitchen in their own way, such as your wive, your dog, your cat, the mouse rummaging through the cabinets, bacteria, etc. They might not ’see’ or understand the concept of kitchen, but they (being part of us, as the whole) contribute to the collapse of the wave function (see my previous comment: the entire planet; the entire universe collapses the wave function simultaneously and paradoxically through the evolution of receptive mechanisms (that then allow the universe to experience itself).
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): I don't have a wife, but if I did have a wife, then yes the quantum kitchen would collapse into objectivity for her. But I am not sure that my dog would collapse this wavefunction being devoid of a separate self. My understanding is a lot of animals have more of a group soul, and are not individuated. Again Dolphins and Chimps probably are more individuated. When this sense of a separate self arises, I would say collapse can start to arise. Again just my understanding that makes sense to me and is in better agreement with Ramana and some other nondual teachers I read.
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): See previous comments. No need to round and round with this.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Quantum mechanics dictates that the universe is in a quantum superposition state until observed or measured. Yes you could say animals are a measuring device. You could even make the case that the first replicators collapsed the whole universe into objectivity. But that position does not make sense to me contemplating this deeply for a while, but I am happy to admit I am wrong here. So many physicists would agree with you and others would not, but there is no real clear way to draw the line between the classical and the quantum (where collapse happens). It is actually a hot debate topic, and by no means has been settled. Heck in the Many worlds camp, embraced by many top physicists, there is no collapse at all!
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): I am not approaching this discussion from a QM perspective. Rather, from a Buddhist and non-duality perspective. Yes, all organisms are their own measuring devices and, consequently, collapse the quantum continuum in such a manner as to end up being localized, whether conscious or not, whether a self of self exists or not, in space and time.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Then on the other hand, the wave function of the multiverse (or Kosmos), nothing has ever collapsed or ever happened as there is nothing outside of everything to collapse it. There really is no right answer or definitive stance here. We are both just picking a conceptual framework that makes sense to us. That is the funny thing about quantum mechanics, there is no decided interpretation (and I am not sure there ever will be).
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): Yes, and never will be. Thus, I focus on facilitating awakening (and clearing), which is the point of non-dual and Buddhist practices. Conceptualizing anything must be recognized as being inherently limited and flawed.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Ramana's teaching I have deeply pondered for couple years now and makes the most sense to me. Also, other nondual sages say this separate self or ego ghost is an illusion that never existed even though it apparently does for the apparent person. When the me drops away it is recognized that it never was all along. So the universe too is really always purely quantum or nondual, and collapse is an illusion just as the ego is an illusion. Do you see where I am coming from? Again we need not agree, but this is what makes sense to me. And technically we are both right because we are just "drawing the line" differently between the classical object world and the nondual quantum universe. Ultimately there is ONLY the quantum nondual universe (no collapse) so within the illusion of separation there will be mainly interpretations.
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): Here I agree. The collapse itself is just another illusion. Yet, if you stub your toe, you are still going to say “ouch”. Form is not an illusion (although some teachers refer to form as a dream). It is our experience, whether we differentiate form from emptiness. When realization occurs, there is no collapse. We [sic] are suddenly aware that we are the universe manifesting as apparent forms.
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): Personally I don't think simple organisms are able to collapse the wavefunction, but again there is no definitive consensus on this. I feel that a sense of self consciousness is needed. The interfaces you mention that even bugs have does not necessarily mean they are able to create a subject object reality which is what makes sense to me as the defining characteristic. Chimpanzees or dolphins is different, but where do you draw the line between the classical world and quantum? Again no one knows. Orthodox Copenhagen draws the line at the measuring device, but that never sat well with me. As you say next, who is observing the experiment or measuring device?
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above): See above comments. Remember, we’re talking non-duality here. All organisms have to eat. But all organisms are merely part of one underlying paradoxical substrate that has been called many things, such as shunyata, emptiness, no-thingness, the deathless, and God. (I only read recently that in the original Hebrew, when Moses asked for God's Name, God then said eheyeh asher eheyeh (אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה), "I AM that I AM" (or "I will be what I will be"), abbreviated simply as eheyeh (אֶהְיֶה), "I AM”. Similarly, "Yahweh" means "To be.” That is beingness itself. Only later, Yahweh was interpreted as “he is” or as a supreme being with personality.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): I don't disagree here. To me this Shunyata/Universal Consciousness/Self/Nondual Awareness/God or whatever IS the nondual Quantum Universe which IS THAT. Again as we both recognize, QM and Nonduality very much share a lot in common. We seem to only be disagreeing on where to draw the line in quantum collapse.
My stance is that a separate self-referential I / ego / me is needed to collapse the wavefunction of whatever subsystem is being seen, experienced, etc. Not to say animals and worms, etc. do not see or perceive, but they don't have a sense of a separate self or ego. This nondual Oneness only collapses with the arising of an illusory ego that ultimately is recognized never really arised, its been the Self all along. This is the position I am taking with the Universal Wavefunction = Universal Consciousness. Everything is THIS consciousness, even the illusory me.
Bryant #2 (in response to Vincent #2 Above): (This is indeed a hot topic of debate. Were the first RNA replicators able to collapse the wavefunction? Or the first organelle, cell, organism , etc. I have read some books on quantum evolution and quantum biology that have some very interesting insights.
Is a self consciousness needed which perhaps is displayed also in some higher mammals like apes and dolphins? I don't think anyone knows.
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above):Now we get into the realm of philosophy (and spirituality): to me, the entire perceived phenomenological universe is shunyata perceiving itself in all its myriad forms. Why would human beings be unique here? At least here on earth, we are all parts of the planet (which is part of the universe) sharing, to one extent or another, specific interfaces. For example, the squirrels and birds in my yard are aware of my presence (as well as the presence of my cat). Thus, there are aspects of each interface that overlap, like different cells in the body having unique functions, but part of a whole. This is why my own limited human mind believes that all life forms have their own particular interface that collapses the wave function differently, but in concert (unision) with (I like the symphonic metaphor here - different players with different instruments combine to produce a symphony) each other. After all, all life forms (which we perceive through our own interface) are this planet and this universe. (This was also my direct experience when awakening occurred, to the extent that no one actually had an experience. Rather, what was experienced [so to speak, given that there was no one to experience anything] was an ego-free moment.)
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Ok here I do see what you are saying, but do bugs and animals perceive a subject-object duality? I might concede that perhaps some highly developed mammals like Chimps and Dolphins very well may, perhaps even my dog. The way I see it, most animals, reptiles, bugs and birds are more in an unconscious sahaja state, with no real sense of a separate self.
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): I agree.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above):As such for them there is no subject object duality like an Ego experiences. And quantum collapse is precisely creating an objective manifestation which requires this duality from a self referent consciousness (consciousness turning back on itself or contracting to create a me, I , apparent person, etc).
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above) : Here is where I disagree. Assuming for now separate (but not independent) existence of all life forms, each collapses the QM in their own way. Ego consciousness is not required. Birds can recognize and respond to threats (e.g., my cat) and food sources (bird seed). Thus, for them, the wave function has collapsed in a very particular manner that, for most earthly based life forms sharing this particular electromagnetic spectrum, overlaps and allows for biological and evolutionary survival.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above):Are cells self referent? I guess you could define that differently, but the whole illusion of separation from my understanding comes from the me or ego.
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): Yes. The illusion of separation comes from the ego. But the ego itself is but an illusion. We are all living in a state of non-duality, including all life forms (and, perhaps all non-life forms). It is only when we think about it that that sense of non-duality disappears.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above):Even kids according to developmental psychologists do not get a sense of a separate self until a certain number of months (I read 5 months in one paper). They remain connected mainly to the mother and surroundings. So infants too I would say are not collapsing the wavefunction because they have no sense of a separate self.
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): Again, no separate sense of self is needed to collapse the wave function. All organisms do that and create their time-based (in various degrees) experience as living creatures (see our discussion in the article I sent you along with some of those we cited). I’ve also attached a draft of asection of a much larger but unpublished theory paper.
Again, I highly recommend Donald Hoffman’s book.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above):Now ultimately there is no collapse as we are always in a superposition in a greater subsystem of the whole. That is the Von Neumann chain of subsystems keeps going up and up to embrace the whole Kosmos. That is whatever you call a collapse can be an entangled superposition state from a larger vantage point, carrying it to the whole leaves no collapse.
In my understanding, the Ego, I, Me or the apparent Person carves out a subsystem every morning when it wakes up collapsing non duality into duality with the "I thought" or Ego coming back online after deep sleep..haha. I am not denying lower animals have an interface and interact with their surroundings, but they do so with no ego or sense of a separate self referential I/me, and as such do not experience subject - object duality and therefore there is no collapse.
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): Ah, here is the distinction, which is the collapse of the wave function is not the same as having a sense of being a separate self. All animals, being localized in space and time collapse the quantum continuum in their own manner, regardless of whether their is an ego or I thought. This is what we discussed in the attached file.
But yes, I agree, it is the I thought that creates a sense of separation (of duality). All organisms, whether conscious or not, recognize threats in their environment. For organisms without an ego, there is still perception of and reaction to what apparently takes place in their field of awareness (i.e., “the environment”). Thus, in order to do so, the wave function must have collapsed. But the sense of separation (of a witness observing a world “out there”; of observer and observed; of self and others) appears to be, arguable, a uniquely human function. For most other organisms (and humans, when it occurs), perception, awareness, and behavior still happens even when there is no “I”.
(I recall many years ago listening to a Green Bay Packers football game. Bret Favre was the QB and he seemed to be operating at another level: e.g., hitting all receivers, avoiding the pass rush, etc. It was John Madden who stated that “Bret Favre is unconscious.” He wasn’t unconscious as we normally think, but in a non-dual state - still able to perceive and act; but without a sense of self. This is possible for everyone, which is what non-dual and Buddhist teachers have taught.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): I am not claiming to be right, this is just what makes sense to me for now. I seems to me you are taking a more orthodox stance on collapse in quantum evolution/quantum biology that I have read where even cells can be self referential.
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): As for whether cells, sub-atomic particles, the wave functions themselves, or the entire universe has some sense of self is way beyond me. However, I am open to such possibilities. After all, from a non-dual perspective, all that is perceived and imagined (i.e., universe and awareness) are neither, none, one, nor many.
There is a great Zen koan to meditate on; The many return to the one; where does the one return to?
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): How we define that or what is needed to collapse that wavefunction is perhaps the stumbling block here. In my opinion having a sensory interface is not enough, what is needed is the illusory sense of an ego or separate self. Surely you cannot think worms have a sense of being a separate self, right?
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): No, I do not believe that they do. But who knows. But see my comments above: they have collapsed the wave function in their own particular way. Otherwise they wouldn’t behave as earthworms do. (Of course, what we perceive to be earthworms might not be how their lives are actually experienced.)
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): But as Ramana says, when you wake up each morning it is YOUR I AM or Ego that is collapsing the wavefunction of your perceived dream reality.
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above): I disagree with your interpretation here of what Ramana taught (unless you consider the act of any organism to be aware of its surroundings a form of “I am”.) To me, “I am” is what creates separation between me and you; self and others. The “I am” is what creates the idea of a universe 'out there' AND an organism ‘over here'. Prior to “I am” there is just the universe/shunyata experiencing itself through these receiving mechanisms, including approach and avoidance motivation (e.g., approach positively valent stimuli [e.g., food] and avoid negatively valent stimuli [e.g., predators].
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): I actually agree here? That is just it, do animals, infants and worms have an "I am" or a sense of a separate? I think not, but again I could be wrong. The question is WHERE in evolution does this occur? Perhaps with an evolved neocortex? I don't know? But I of course concede highly developed mammalian brains are very likely able to cognize a sense of a separate self (Dolphins and Chimps come to mind).
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): The “I am” creates separation. Yes. Here’s another way to approach this. The sense of self is an illusion. The ‘me’ doesn’t exist except as a thought. But, as discussed above, perception, awareness, and action still occur; but do so without separation. As Fred Davis always says, “Oneness is not sameness."
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): And in dreams as you say (or near death experiences) we seem to have a different interface, but it is still this "I AM" or ego attaching itself to another dream body. I have been pondering my dreams a lot lately and it is incredibly insightful as I see myself as a separate character in a dream world with many other characters, but when I "wake up" , I realize it was all in my consciousness. Does my kitchen exist when I am sleeping in deep at night? Quantum mechanics says NO. What you have is a well defined wavefunction that is relatively stable because of its mass, but it still doesn't exist until seen by a conscious observer.
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above): This perspective does not take into account all the other organisms that perceive the kitchen in their own way, such as your wive, your dog, your cat, the mouse rummaging through the cabinets, bacteria, etc. They might not ’see’ or understand the concept of kitchen, but they (being part of us, as the whole) contribute to the collapse of the wave function (see my previous comment: the entire planet; the entire universe collapses the wave function simultaneously and paradoxically through the evolution of receptive mechanisms (that then allow the universe to experience itself).
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): I don't have a wife, but if I did have a wife, then yes the quantum kitchen would collapse into objectivity for her. But I am not sure that my dog would collapse this wavefunction being devoid of a separate self. My understanding is a lot of animals have more of a group soul, and are not individuated. Again Dolphins and Chimps probably are more individuated. When this sense of a separate self arises, I would say collapse can start to arise. Again just my understanding that makes sense to me and is in better agreement with Ramana and some other nondual teachers I read.
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): See previous comments. No need to round and round with this.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Quantum mechanics dictates that the universe is in a quantum superposition state until observed or measured. Yes you could say animals are a measuring device. You could even make the case that the first replicators collapsed the whole universe into objectivity. But that position does not make sense to me contemplating this deeply for a while, but I am happy to admit I am wrong here. So many physicists would agree with you and others would not, but there is no real clear way to draw the line between the classical and the quantum (where collapse happens). It is actually a hot debate topic, and by no means has been settled. Heck in the Many worlds camp, embraced by many top physicists, there is no collapse at all!
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): I am not approaching this discussion from a QM perspective. Rather, from a Buddhist and non-duality perspective. Yes, all organisms are their own measuring devices and, consequently, collapse the quantum continuum in such a manner as to end up being localized, whether conscious or not, whether a self of self exists or not, in space and time.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Then on the other hand, the wave function of the multiverse (or Kosmos), nothing has ever collapsed or ever happened as there is nothing outside of everything to collapse it. There really is no right answer or definitive stance here. We are both just picking a conceptual framework that makes sense to us. That is the funny thing about quantum mechanics, there is no decided interpretation (and I am not sure there ever will be).
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): Yes, and never will be. Thus, I focus on facilitating awakening (and clearing), which is the point of non-dual and Buddhist practices. Conceptualizing anything must be recognized as being inherently limited and flawed.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Ramana's teaching I have deeply pondered for couple years now and makes the most sense to me. Also, other nondual sages say this separate self or ego ghost is an illusion that never existed even though it apparently does for the apparent person. When the me drops away it is recognized that it never was all along. So the universe too is really always purely quantum or nondual, and collapse is an illusion just as the ego is an illusion. Do you see where I am coming from? Again we need not agree, but this is what makes sense to me. And technically we are both right because we are just "drawing the line" differently between the classical object world and the nondual quantum universe. Ultimately there is ONLY the quantum nondual universe (no collapse) so within the illusion of separation there will be mainly interpretations.
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above): Here I agree. The collapse itself is just another illusion. Yet, if you stub your toe, you are still going to say “ouch”. Form is not an illusion (although some teachers refer to form as a dream). It is our experience, whether we differentiate form from emptiness. When realization occurs, there is no collapse. We [sic] are suddenly aware that we are the universe manifesting as apparent forms.
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): Personally I don't think simple organisms are able to collapse the wavefunction, but again there is no definitive consensus on this. I feel that a sense of self consciousness is needed. The interfaces you mention that even bugs have does not necessarily mean they are able to create a subject object reality which is what makes sense to me as the defining characteristic. Chimpanzees or dolphins is different, but where do you draw the line between the classical world and quantum? Again no one knows. Orthodox Copenhagen draws the line at the measuring device, but that never sat well with me. As you say next, who is observing the experiment or measuring device?
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above): See above comments. Remember, we’re talking non-duality here. All organisms have to eat. But all organisms are merely part of one underlying paradoxical substrate that has been called many things, such as shunyata, emptiness, no-thingness, the deathless, and God. (I only read recently that in the original Hebrew, when Moses asked for God's Name, God then said eheyeh asher eheyeh (אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה), "I AM that I AM" (or "I will be what I will be"), abbreviated simply as eheyeh (אֶהְיֶה), "I AM”. Similarly, "Yahweh" means "To be.” That is beingness itself. Only later, Yahweh was interpreted as “he is” or as a supreme being with personality.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): I don't disagree here. To me this Shunyata/Universal Consciousness/Self/Nondual Awareness/God or whatever IS the nondual Quantum Universe which IS THAT. Again as we both recognize, QM and Nonduality very much share a lot in common. We seem to only be disagreeing on where to draw the line in quantum collapse.
My stance is that a separate self-referential I / ego / me is needed to collapse the wavefunction of whatever subsystem is being seen, experienced, etc. Not to say animals and worms, etc. do not see or perceive, but they don't have a sense of a separate self or ego. This nondual Oneness only collapses with the arising of an illusory ego that ultimately is recognized never really arised, its been the Self all along. This is the position I am taking with the Universal Wavefunction = Universal Consciousness. Everything is THIS consciousness, even the illusory me.
**Vincent #2 (CONT)**: Again, the paradox is the circular nature of form and emptiness, observer and observed. What is doing the observing? Observing cannot happen without receptors; but receptors do not exist without being observed. This is the problem with the physicalist view of consciousness (loosely defined), which views consciousness (awareness, sentience, however defined) as an emerging property of neural activity. But then, who is observing neural activity? Neural activity itself does not exist without an observer. But what is the observer?
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): Who indeed is doing the observing. This is the question I ask myself daily in meditation/inquiry. And I do not buy for a minute that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the brain and its neural activities. As you say, who is observing the neural activity? Who hears? Who is the thinker? Who is the Seer? Who is the taster, feeler, smeller, etc. As I understand it, this is at the core of the hard problem. Who or what is experiencing it? Who sees red or smells roses?
Who indeed is this observer?
Thanks for sharing this is helping to look a little deeper.
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above): This is a key meditation of both Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism: who or what are you?
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Yes!!
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): Who indeed is doing the observing. This is the question I ask myself daily in meditation/inquiry. And I do not buy for a minute that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the brain and its neural activities. As you say, who is observing the neural activity? Who hears? Who is the thinker? Who is the Seer? Who is the taster, feeler, smeller, etc. As I understand it, this is at the core of the hard problem. Who or what is experiencing it? Who sees red or smells roses?
Who indeed is this observer?
Thanks for sharing this is helping to look a little deeper.
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above): This is a key meditation of both Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism: who or what are you?
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Yes!!
**Vincent #2 (CONT)**: You mentioned that consciousness can still exist like in deep sleep. I agree. Have you ever woken up from a deep sleep to a strange or unexpected sound, such as creaking stairs? One night not be conscious, but somehow perception/awareness still occurs.
Yes.
Yes.
**Vincent #2 (CONT)**: In Buddhism, emptiness is not the absence of anything or akin of empty space, but rather, is that (awareness, non-dual consciousness, no-thingness) that is observing the phenomenological universe (form), whether an ego arises or not.
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): I agree with this. Emptiness from Shunya or Shunyata is better defined as an empty fullness which is none other than awareness or nondual consciousness as you say (I use those terms too). It is both everything and nothing, both and neither...lol.. (in the spirit of Nagarjuna)
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above):Yes, it is the no-thingness that is everything.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Yes Again!!
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): I agree with this. Emptiness from Shunya or Shunyata is better defined as an empty fullness which is none other than awareness or nondual consciousness as you say (I use those terms too). It is both everything and nothing, both and neither...lol.. (in the spirit of Nagarjuna)
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above):Yes, it is the no-thingness that is everything.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Yes Again!!
**Vincent #2 (CONT)**: What ‘we’ are is prior to thought. It is prior to the “I am”. Whether all this is part of a larger subsystem that still exists in quantum superposition cannot really be known: our cognitive minds cannot grasp that which is beyond and contains those minds. That said, realization can (and does occur, as it has for me and many other people throughout history). Realization is the dropping of the “I am” and the direct realization that we are simultaneously a unified no-thingness AND a receiving/action mechanism (i.e., apparent person) that is the manifestation of that no-thingness. If I tried hard, I might be able to explain it better; but no words can come close.
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): To me, the quantum superposition is this empty fullness, both nothing and everything and neither. This complementarity (as Neils Bohr called it like the wave particle duality or "non-duality - because it is not a duality at all..lol), is very much in the spirit of the nondual philosophies I have studied, contemplated and meditated upon.
I understand what you are saying as much as the rational mind can. And absolutely, what we are is prior to thought, prior to I am and any notions of being separate self. But as you hinted, non-duality (not two - Samara = Nirvana) does not negate the separate self, but we realize our true nature which is beyond words to explain, but I think you said it well. I like the notion of the nonduality of duality and nonduality to emphasize that there is still an"apparent" person or token or avatar to "play the game". Both no-thingness AND the apparent person are Not 2, like a quantum object being both a particle (localized) and a wave (spread out) which is a manifestation of no-thingness ( Heisenbergs Potentia of superpositions is precisely no-thingness).
Something that dawned on me reading what you wrote is that one in Sahaja samadhi still has it apparent person or avatar to interact with world (local classical subsystem in spacetime), yet also has a better access to nondual thoughtless consciousness (larger quantum nondual system beyond spacetime). I recognize that this cannot be fully grasped until it is fully realized, but it makes sense this nonduality of duality and nonduality (not 2).
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above): Realizing true nature alleviates, mitigates, if not entire eliminates suffering, because there is awareness that the sense of a separate self, despite being a form of delusion, is but a role that is played. (i.e., eat when hungry; sleep when tired; pay the bills, etc.) But now it can be played consciously and with humor and equanimity.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Well said!
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): To me, the quantum superposition is this empty fullness, both nothing and everything and neither. This complementarity (as Neils Bohr called it like the wave particle duality or "non-duality - because it is not a duality at all..lol), is very much in the spirit of the nondual philosophies I have studied, contemplated and meditated upon.
I understand what you are saying as much as the rational mind can. And absolutely, what we are is prior to thought, prior to I am and any notions of being separate self. But as you hinted, non-duality (not two - Samara = Nirvana) does not negate the separate self, but we realize our true nature which is beyond words to explain, but I think you said it well. I like the notion of the nonduality of duality and nonduality to emphasize that there is still an"apparent" person or token or avatar to "play the game". Both no-thingness AND the apparent person are Not 2, like a quantum object being both a particle (localized) and a wave (spread out) which is a manifestation of no-thingness ( Heisenbergs Potentia of superpositions is precisely no-thingness).
Something that dawned on me reading what you wrote is that one in Sahaja samadhi still has it apparent person or avatar to interact with world (local classical subsystem in spacetime), yet also has a better access to nondual thoughtless consciousness (larger quantum nondual system beyond spacetime). I recognize that this cannot be fully grasped until it is fully realized, but it makes sense this nonduality of duality and nonduality (not 2).
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above): Realizing true nature alleviates, mitigates, if not entire eliminates suffering, because there is awareness that the sense of a separate self, despite being a form of delusion, is but a role that is played. (i.e., eat when hungry; sleep when tired; pay the bills, etc.) But now it can be played consciously and with humor and equanimity.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Well said!
**Vincent #2 (CONT)**: As Lau Tzu said in the Tau Te Ching: The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): Yes, I love that quote and it is always a great reminder. Yet the teachings point us in the right direction especially when coming from a true sage, like the pointing out directions in Dzogchen. While silence is the best teacher, depending where you are at, words are probably needed for inspiration and instruction.
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above): Ironic that despite Lau Tzu’s opening words, he then wrote 81 chapters. This is true for all the great sages throughout history. Dogen Zenji wrote the massive Shobogenzo.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Yes, but I still love the words of these Masters, there is a transformative power or energy behind the words!
Ultimately QM for me is just a funny little hobby. My main passion is the paradox of meditating/inquiring without seeking anything other than what I already Am. Inquiring who or what I am. I did like 2 hours this morning following Ramana's pointing directions. Ultimately I understand that there is nothing I can do or practice to become what I already AM, but this turning within feels to me an important step based on where I am at. I know you have some deeper experiences than I have , but I have had many beautiful little glimpses. But bryant is still a stubborn little illusory ego..haha
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above):
Keep practicing!
Ironically, many think that awakening is difficult. It doesn’t have to be. But rather it is the clearing process that takes a lifetime (for most; there have been exceptions). (A good book to read about this is Adyashanti’s The End of Your World.)
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): Yes, I love that quote and it is always a great reminder. Yet the teachings point us in the right direction especially when coming from a true sage, like the pointing out directions in Dzogchen. While silence is the best teacher, depending where you are at, words are probably needed for inspiration and instruction.
Vincent #3 (in response to Bryant #2 Above): Ironic that despite Lau Tzu’s opening words, he then wrote 81 chapters. This is true for all the great sages throughout history. Dogen Zenji wrote the massive Shobogenzo.
Bryant #3 (In response to Vincent #3 Above): Yes, but I still love the words of these Masters, there is a transformative power or energy behind the words!
Ultimately QM for me is just a funny little hobby. My main passion is the paradox of meditating/inquiring without seeking anything other than what I already Am. Inquiring who or what I am. I did like 2 hours this morning following Ramana's pointing directions. Ultimately I understand that there is nothing I can do or practice to become what I already AM, but this turning within feels to me an important step based on where I am at. I know you have some deeper experiences than I have , but I have had many beautiful little glimpses. But bryant is still a stubborn little illusory ego..haha
Vincent #4 in Response to Bryant #3 above):
Keep practicing!
Ironically, many think that awakening is difficult. It doesn’t have to be. But rather it is the clearing process that takes a lifetime (for most; there have been exceptions). (A good book to read about this is Adyashanti’s The End of Your World.)
**Vincent #2 (CONT)**: You mentioned that consciousness can still exist like in deep sleep. I agree. Have you ever woken up from a deep sleep to a strange or unexpected sound, such as creaking stairs? One night not be conscious, but somehow perception/awareness still occurs.
Yes.
Yes.
**Vincent #2 (CONT)**: Here’s that paper, btw. It largely explains human consciousness as manifested by these units, so it is more about the psychology of human consciousness, rather than of non-dual consciousness or of QM (although is a later manuscript, we did attempt to incorporate QM into our theory). You seem like a deep thinker, so I think you might enjoy it.
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): Thanks again, I appreciate the detailed response, so many good insights for inquiry.
Bryant #2 (In response to Vincent #2 Above): Thanks again, I appreciate the detailed response, so many good insights for inquiry.
**Bryant Concluding Notes:
Just a few observations for now:
If a toddler or lower animal (or a cell) has no sense of a separate self, how is there than a Subject to experience
the collapsed Objective Universe? The two arise together.
By definition collapse creates the Objective Classical World/Universe.
So how can you have an Objective World with no Subject?
Or stated another way, how can there be a Subject with no sense of being a separate self?
Responding to a threat in Nature to me is an instinctual program that could be running on the great Nondual quantum computer we call the universe (black hole event horizons could be the harddrive).
Quantum computers can run many programs simultaneously and you could have programs for each
species that could have a range of possibilities that play out (like Schrondigers cat - could the Cat cause the collapse? You say yes, I would say no unless it has a sense of being an ego - which is possible..lol).
That is, these animals are in quantum superpositions until a conscious observer with a Self
Referent sense of "I" collapses and sees a duality or actuality that is not ultimately really not there (illusion of Objectivity and collapse). And collapse is most definitely an illusion even by standard quantum mechanics when you consider what a Von Neumann chain of measurements is. Every quantum measuring device is in an entangled superposition state between the device and what is being measured from the perspective of another measuring device measuring it ad infinitum.
The stability of matter allows these wavefunctions to be very "tight" and "seemingly" solid & unchanging, but this is still very much a quantum universe with quantum quantum superposition of a spectrum of possibilities or outcomes (albeit very tight). For me this works just fine for all species that have no sense of a separate self.
The stability comes from Debroglies equation and slow Regeneration times of massive and complex objects (that is returning from classical to quantum is still possible just very improbable - equations time reversible - this related to entropy). This is called the correspondence principle and it would SEEM classical physics is recovered for large and massive objects, but that too is an illusion.
Again ultimately as you agree there is ONLY nonduality reality ALREADY so collapse is an illusion for the apparent ego/me (the way I see it). This is in a way saying that the nondual wavefunction of the universe is akin to metaphysical solipsism. There is only one mind, one consciousness, one Self. Apparent separate I's/me's and objectivity from collapse is an illusion.
Just having a biological measuring device (in my understanding) is not enough as it is still entangled with what is measured. I feel a conscious Observer with a sense of being a separate self is needed to "see" the illusory collapse of Nonduality into duality ;-)
I think taking standard measurements of more orthodox quantum interpretations like decoherence agrees with what you say, but you would have to take that all the way down to the first primordial life-based measuring devices - RNA/DNA replicators to create the first collapse event or certainly at least the first cells. (a measurement device has to be able to store memory or information of some sort - like RNA/DNA).
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer because again the line between quantum and classical is a sliding scale ranging from the molecular smallest measuring devices all the way up to a Universal wavefunction or Many worlds where there is no collapse at all. Different interpretations draw the line in different places and have varying theories and philosophies.
And yes, I will keep practicing the non practice of Inquiry.
One phrase I ponder along with "Who am I" is: Who or what is now experiencing this moment?
Just a few observations for now:
If a toddler or lower animal (or a cell) has no sense of a separate self, how is there than a Subject to experience
the collapsed Objective Universe? The two arise together.
By definition collapse creates the Objective Classical World/Universe.
So how can you have an Objective World with no Subject?
Or stated another way, how can there be a Subject with no sense of being a separate self?
Responding to a threat in Nature to me is an instinctual program that could be running on the great Nondual quantum computer we call the universe (black hole event horizons could be the harddrive).
Quantum computers can run many programs simultaneously and you could have programs for each
species that could have a range of possibilities that play out (like Schrondigers cat - could the Cat cause the collapse? You say yes, I would say no unless it has a sense of being an ego - which is possible..lol).
That is, these animals are in quantum superpositions until a conscious observer with a Self
Referent sense of "I" collapses and sees a duality or actuality that is not ultimately really not there (illusion of Objectivity and collapse). And collapse is most definitely an illusion even by standard quantum mechanics when you consider what a Von Neumann chain of measurements is. Every quantum measuring device is in an entangled superposition state between the device and what is being measured from the perspective of another measuring device measuring it ad infinitum.
The stability of matter allows these wavefunctions to be very "tight" and "seemingly" solid & unchanging, but this is still very much a quantum universe with quantum quantum superposition of a spectrum of possibilities or outcomes (albeit very tight). For me this works just fine for all species that have no sense of a separate self.
The stability comes from Debroglies equation and slow Regeneration times of massive and complex objects (that is returning from classical to quantum is still possible just very improbable - equations time reversible - this related to entropy). This is called the correspondence principle and it would SEEM classical physics is recovered for large and massive objects, but that too is an illusion.
Again ultimately as you agree there is ONLY nonduality reality ALREADY so collapse is an illusion for the apparent ego/me (the way I see it). This is in a way saying that the nondual wavefunction of the universe is akin to metaphysical solipsism. There is only one mind, one consciousness, one Self. Apparent separate I's/me's and objectivity from collapse is an illusion.
Just having a biological measuring device (in my understanding) is not enough as it is still entangled with what is measured. I feel a conscious Observer with a sense of being a separate self is needed to "see" the illusory collapse of Nonduality into duality ;-)
I think taking standard measurements of more orthodox quantum interpretations like decoherence agrees with what you say, but you would have to take that all the way down to the first primordial life-based measuring devices - RNA/DNA replicators to create the first collapse event or certainly at least the first cells. (a measurement device has to be able to store memory or information of some sort - like RNA/DNA).
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer because again the line between quantum and classical is a sliding scale ranging from the molecular smallest measuring devices all the way up to a Universal wavefunction or Many worlds where there is no collapse at all. Different interpretations draw the line in different places and have varying theories and philosophies.
And yes, I will keep practicing the non practice of Inquiry.
One phrase I ponder along with "Who am I" is: Who or what is now experiencing this moment?
**Vincent Additional Remarks in Black
Trying to explain non-duality only obscures the teachings. Yet, teachers throughout history have attempted to do so, not to develop a theory of consciousness, but to point people to their own direct experience prior to thought.
As possibly smart people, you and I enjoy reading and pondering about complex ideas, such as as QM and the wave function. Yet, any theory (including the theory of MindTime that John Furey and I published) is limited because it is derived from cognition, not direct non-dual experience. (It was Fred Davis who replied to people who say “I understand [non-duality], but it’s not my experience” as follows: “It is your experience; you just don’t understand it.”
The best we can do is to point more precisely toward the moon (to use an old Zen metaphor). Now, if you can explain to me how, from the perspective of this planet, no matter which direction we look out into space, we eventually see the microwave energy remnants of the Big Bang. Seems to me that the apparent expansion of the universe is taking place inside a singularity. Expansion is an illusion. Perhaps everything is shrinking. (Wasn’t it Wheeler who first proposed that?)
Interesting, long before the current Big Bang theory when it was thought that the universe expanded at a steady pace from the moment of the Big Bang, I could not reconcile how, if that were true, we could see light from distant galaxies, since light would have caught up itself, in a manner of speaking. The only explanation (to me, at the time) was that the universe initially exploded (into what, hell if I know) faster than the speed of light. That is now the current theory. These questions often came to mind as I sat in my college classes bored out of my mind.
Of course, we only see what we see because of how our interface collapses the wave function! LOL
Trying to explain non-duality only obscures the teachings. Yet, teachers throughout history have attempted to do so, not to develop a theory of consciousness, but to point people to their own direct experience prior to thought.
As possibly smart people, you and I enjoy reading and pondering about complex ideas, such as as QM and the wave function. Yet, any theory (including the theory of MindTime that John Furey and I published) is limited because it is derived from cognition, not direct non-dual experience. (It was Fred Davis who replied to people who say “I understand [non-duality], but it’s not my experience” as follows: “It is your experience; you just don’t understand it.”
The best we can do is to point more precisely toward the moon (to use an old Zen metaphor). Now, if you can explain to me how, from the perspective of this planet, no matter which direction we look out into space, we eventually see the microwave energy remnants of the Big Bang. Seems to me that the apparent expansion of the universe is taking place inside a singularity. Expansion is an illusion. Perhaps everything is shrinking. (Wasn’t it Wheeler who first proposed that?)
Interesting, long before the current Big Bang theory when it was thought that the universe expanded at a steady pace from the moment of the Big Bang, I could not reconcile how, if that were true, we could see light from distant galaxies, since light would have caught up itself, in a manner of speaking. The only explanation (to me, at the time) was that the universe initially exploded (into what, hell if I know) faster than the speed of light. That is now the current theory. These questions often came to mind as I sat in my college classes bored out of my mind.
Of course, we only see what we see because of how our interface collapses the wave function! LOL
Addendum to Discussion by Bryant Meyers:
I have been pondering this whole collapse and I think I see the source of confusion (which still does not settle things but for me adds clarity to my position). The key is understanding the Decoherence APPARENTLY gives rise to collapse of the wavefunction, but this is only APPARENT.
Statistically like I was trying to say all along, the measuring device/biological interface is always still in a superposition, though a very statistically "narrow" or limited one. This again has to due with mass, complexity, slow regeneration times, and interactions with a warm and noisy environment.
So this is how our birds and worms interact to follow food and flee from predators (desire/aversion). Decoherence gives statistically a very close approximation to classical physics and its corresponding objective reality (which creatures can interact in).
But here is the big key: Decoherence DOES NOT reduce the wavefunction to a single eigenstate (see below) which is technically what a collapse of the wavefunction REALLY is. No objective reality is ever REALLY measured/observed only apparently due to decoherence. So in this way a separate self is also not really collapsing the wavefunction either. But, it does create and clearly carve out a subject - object duality that really is not there. But to me any apparent collapse, demands a subject - object duality.
Personally in my Journey, Ramana Maharshi has been the clearest light in understanding nonduality (as much as the mind can with some glimpses). In my opinion, his ideas of nonduality best point to the Ego being the only source of any apparent Collapse of the wavefunction.
Ramana says [in Ulladu Narpadu]: " If the ego comes into existence, everything comes into existence; if the ego does not exist, everything does not exist. [Hence] the ego itself is everything. Therefore, know that investigating what this [Ego] is alone is giving up everything."
So if the ego appears, everything appears (apparent collapse), if the ego does not exist, nothing appears. I don't think there is any way to know what worms and birds actually see. Who is the Seer inside them? You could say it is the Self/God, but a Self/God that has no ego (I know you agree on this but disagree that the ego is needed for collapse, but if there is no collapse only Apparently so, it would seem to me this apparent collapse into objectivity requires an ego).
I admit this is a mystery that as we both agree the mind can never understand ultimately reality/God/Shuyata/etc.
But this ego and subject-object split in my view is the quintessential hallmark of any meaningful definition of what collapse is if we are to define it at all. Things go from not existing (like in Heisenbergs Potentia) to Existing or appearing (Collapse/Observation). Without an ego, nothing appears! What do worms see? Perhaps dreamlike superposition states with weighted probabilities that heavily favor the classical world??? But I don't think the world actually appears to birds and worms. It is more instinctual and law/habit based like the laws of the universe even.
But again I recognize now that collapse is an illusion (which you agree), as is the ego or separate self (also which you agree).
Correct me if I am wrong, but you just think collapse happens for all lifeforms with a biological sensory interface.
But if you take that stance where would you draw the line? Worms, cells, DNA, RNA, molecules? If life is needed for any apparent collapse, than all the stars forming and supernovas exploding did not exist until the first lifeform collapsed the whole thing?? To me this makes no sense something like a simple cell or replicator could do this, but theories of quantum evolution seem to embrace this as a hypothesis.
The ego or subject - object duality is a clearly defined LINE to create a collapse. Either you have a sense of being a separate subject self in an objective universe or you do not.
What you are pointing to (in my understanding of your position) has no clear beginning point for collapse to start??
And we also know collapse points to retrocausation, so everything would blink into existence with the first collapse. Quantum evolution theorists take a very strong Anthropic stance in that all the superpositions collapsed to create life because that is the only way life could come about. That is, the only possibilities in the infinite number of superposition states of the Universe that collapse are the ones that CAN collapse the wavefunction. Everything in the Universe is just right for Life to exist because only then could life exist to collapse the wavefunction. I would take that position but bring the line up to the Ego or self aware consciousness.
So in my understanding, if we are going to define collapse at all, it must be admitted that while illusory, it must require an apparent illusory ego to do so. Of course this who process is a paradox because the mind cannot fathom Ultimate Reality. To me this interpretation makes the most sense to my logical mind and my 2-3 years of intense study and meditation on nonduality, but again I concede that really there is no collapse of the wavefunction, only decoherence and APPARENT collapse due to mass, complexity and interactions of objects with a hot, and noisy environment. Decoherence doesn't even require lifeforms, just these aforemential macroscopic conditions.
-----
Wikipedia Excerpts on Collapse
It is helpful to be grounded in what it means for the wavefunction of any quantum system to "collapse". Note highlighted below in black to emphasize my points above. What you and I are calling collapse is decoherence, because again there really is no collapse.
In quantum mechanics, wave function collapse occurs when a wave function—initially in a superposition of several eigenstates—reduces to a single eigenstate due to interaction with the external world. This interaction is called an observation, and is the essence of a measurement in quantum mechanics, which connects the wave function with classical observables such as position and momentum. Collapse is one of the two processes by which quantum systems evolve in time; the other is the continuous evolution governed by the Schrödinger equation.
Calculations of quantum decoherence show that when a quantum system interacts with the environment, the superpositions apparently reduce to mixtures of classical alternatives. Significantly, the combined wave function of the system and environment continue to obey the Schrödinger equation throughout this apparent collapse.[4] More importantly, this is not enough to explain actual wave function collapse, as decoherence does not reduce it to a single eigenstate.[2][5]
Quantum decoherence explains why a system interacting with an environment transitions from being a pure state, exhibiting superpositions, to a mixed state, an incoherent combination of classical alternatives. This transition is fundamentally reversible, as the combined state of system and environment is still pure [uncollapsed], but for all practical purposes irreversible, as the environment is a very large and complex quantum system, and it is not feasible to reverse their interaction [but still possible]. Decoherence is thus very important for explaining the classical limit of quantum mechanics, but cannot explain wave function collapse, as all classical alternatives are still present in the mixed state, and wave function collapse selects only one of them.
I have been pondering this whole collapse and I think I see the source of confusion (which still does not settle things but for me adds clarity to my position). The key is understanding the Decoherence APPARENTLY gives rise to collapse of the wavefunction, but this is only APPARENT.
Statistically like I was trying to say all along, the measuring device/biological interface is always still in a superposition, though a very statistically "narrow" or limited one. This again has to due with mass, complexity, slow regeneration times, and interactions with a warm and noisy environment.
So this is how our birds and worms interact to follow food and flee from predators (desire/aversion). Decoherence gives statistically a very close approximation to classical physics and its corresponding objective reality (which creatures can interact in).
But here is the big key: Decoherence DOES NOT reduce the wavefunction to a single eigenstate (see below) which is technically what a collapse of the wavefunction REALLY is. No objective reality is ever REALLY measured/observed only apparently due to decoherence. So in this way a separate self is also not really collapsing the wavefunction either. But, it does create and clearly carve out a subject - object duality that really is not there. But to me any apparent collapse, demands a subject - object duality.
Personally in my Journey, Ramana Maharshi has been the clearest light in understanding nonduality (as much as the mind can with some glimpses). In my opinion, his ideas of nonduality best point to the Ego being the only source of any apparent Collapse of the wavefunction.
Ramana says [in Ulladu Narpadu]: " If the ego comes into existence, everything comes into existence; if the ego does not exist, everything does not exist. [Hence] the ego itself is everything. Therefore, know that investigating what this [Ego] is alone is giving up everything."
So if the ego appears, everything appears (apparent collapse), if the ego does not exist, nothing appears. I don't think there is any way to know what worms and birds actually see. Who is the Seer inside them? You could say it is the Self/God, but a Self/God that has no ego (I know you agree on this but disagree that the ego is needed for collapse, but if there is no collapse only Apparently so, it would seem to me this apparent collapse into objectivity requires an ego).
I admit this is a mystery that as we both agree the mind can never understand ultimately reality/God/Shuyata/etc.
But this ego and subject-object split in my view is the quintessential hallmark of any meaningful definition of what collapse is if we are to define it at all. Things go from not existing (like in Heisenbergs Potentia) to Existing or appearing (Collapse/Observation). Without an ego, nothing appears! What do worms see? Perhaps dreamlike superposition states with weighted probabilities that heavily favor the classical world??? But I don't think the world actually appears to birds and worms. It is more instinctual and law/habit based like the laws of the universe even.
But again I recognize now that collapse is an illusion (which you agree), as is the ego or separate self (also which you agree).
Correct me if I am wrong, but you just think collapse happens for all lifeforms with a biological sensory interface.
But if you take that stance where would you draw the line? Worms, cells, DNA, RNA, molecules? If life is needed for any apparent collapse, than all the stars forming and supernovas exploding did not exist until the first lifeform collapsed the whole thing?? To me this makes no sense something like a simple cell or replicator could do this, but theories of quantum evolution seem to embrace this as a hypothesis.
The ego or subject - object duality is a clearly defined LINE to create a collapse. Either you have a sense of being a separate subject self in an objective universe or you do not.
What you are pointing to (in my understanding of your position) has no clear beginning point for collapse to start??
And we also know collapse points to retrocausation, so everything would blink into existence with the first collapse. Quantum evolution theorists take a very strong Anthropic stance in that all the superpositions collapsed to create life because that is the only way life could come about. That is, the only possibilities in the infinite number of superposition states of the Universe that collapse are the ones that CAN collapse the wavefunction. Everything in the Universe is just right for Life to exist because only then could life exist to collapse the wavefunction. I would take that position but bring the line up to the Ego or self aware consciousness.
So in my understanding, if we are going to define collapse at all, it must be admitted that while illusory, it must require an apparent illusory ego to do so. Of course this who process is a paradox because the mind cannot fathom Ultimate Reality. To me this interpretation makes the most sense to my logical mind and my 2-3 years of intense study and meditation on nonduality, but again I concede that really there is no collapse of the wavefunction, only decoherence and APPARENT collapse due to mass, complexity and interactions of objects with a hot, and noisy environment. Decoherence doesn't even require lifeforms, just these aforemential macroscopic conditions.
-----
Wikipedia Excerpts on Collapse
It is helpful to be grounded in what it means for the wavefunction of any quantum system to "collapse". Note highlighted below in black to emphasize my points above. What you and I are calling collapse is decoherence, because again there really is no collapse.
In quantum mechanics, wave function collapse occurs when a wave function—initially in a superposition of several eigenstates—reduces to a single eigenstate due to interaction with the external world. This interaction is called an observation, and is the essence of a measurement in quantum mechanics, which connects the wave function with classical observables such as position and momentum. Collapse is one of the two processes by which quantum systems evolve in time; the other is the continuous evolution governed by the Schrödinger equation.
Calculations of quantum decoherence show that when a quantum system interacts with the environment, the superpositions apparently reduce to mixtures of classical alternatives. Significantly, the combined wave function of the system and environment continue to obey the Schrödinger equation throughout this apparent collapse.[4] More importantly, this is not enough to explain actual wave function collapse, as decoherence does not reduce it to a single eigenstate.[2][5]
Quantum decoherence explains why a system interacting with an environment transitions from being a pure state, exhibiting superpositions, to a mixed state, an incoherent combination of classical alternatives. This transition is fundamentally reversible, as the combined state of system and environment is still pure [uncollapsed], but for all practical purposes irreversible, as the environment is a very large and complex quantum system, and it is not feasible to reverse their interaction [but still possible]. Decoherence is thus very important for explaining the classical limit of quantum mechanics, but cannot explain wave function collapse, as all classical alternatives are still present in the mixed state, and wave function collapse selects only one of them.
Vincent's Penultimate Reply to my Addendum above with my final response in Red
Bryant,
You are trying to understand non-duality through the lens of quantum physics. Let it go. It is a fool’s quest. The only way to “understand" non-duality is to have an ego free moment. But that is not really understanding. (See the quote below.)
Point taken.
But isn't it a fools quest to "understand" non-duality at all..lol.
It is a direct “knowing”. This is what Ramana Maharshi meant by the words you quoted:
"If the ego comes into existence, everything comes into existence; if the ego does not exist, everything does not exist. [Hence] the ego itself is everything. Therefore, know that investigating what this [Ego] is alone is giving up everything.”
Without the mind that creates separation, what is there? All at once, the whole universe collapses into "just this”. That does not mean that there is suddenly no universe; and yet it does. There is no universe in the sense of a witness or observer looking out upon a universe. What is left is what you are; what the entire universe is.
I don't disagree here. The universe exists and doesn't exist. That is a paradox that of course the mind cannot understand.
So in that sense any talk about a collapsing wavefunction is futile, it just continues to make the most sense to speak of any apparent collapse as needing a subject-object ego. So in this light Ramana's teaching does have an analogue with QM. Not saying it is the same because as I concede, like you say, that we can only experience nonduality or the universal conscious (which is how I view the universal wavefunction as I take a consciousness only stance of QM).
However, attaching labels, such as the universe or consciousness, or ego, can only mislead.
Yes, but pointers are needed.
The paradox (at least for us human beings) is that our minds create the notion of a universe by creating the apparent separation between observer and observed. That is what Ramana was pointing to. Drop the self. Drop the ego. And the whole universe disappears. What is left can be considered a verb; not a noun.
Agree, Interestly I just wrote an post on how the Self is more a verb and not a noun. But a verb of nondoing that has no subject and no object (again analogous to operators in QM - action only). Most doings or action verbs connect subject and object, while "what is left" as you say, is a verb only (if even that but seems to me a better pointer). Even Ramana refused to be called a Jnani (which is a noun), he said there is no Jnani here, only Jnana (which is more a nondual verb).
So if the ego appears, everything appears (apparent collapse), if the ego does not exist, nothing appears.
Nothing appears because there is no separation between observer and observed. That is the point. You keep missing it. ‘You’ disappear; the ‘universe’ disappears. But eating will still occur when hungry. Sleeping will still occur when tired.
Yes I do agree, all this happens apparently for an apparent separate self.
I don't think there is any way to know what worms and birds actually see.
Of course not, they have their own interfaces.
Interfaces that I feel don't create an apparent collapse unless the interface creates a subject - object reality.
Perhaps animals do sense duality, i don't know? But I would say that worms unlikely do. Again I conceded i may be wrong
and I have also conceded you are correct in that the Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao, I just appreciate and I am inspired by the deep parallels (for me) between QM and Nondual philosophy - and again, I understand the philosophy is just words and QM is just equations, but they are powerful compasses that are better suited than limiting dogmatic beliefs and classical (objective) physics to point us in the right direction.
I still do my practice, I consider QM and Nonduality more as part of Shravana and Manana, not of course actual Nididhyasana.
Who is the Seer inside them?
There is no seer. However, there is seeing.
By Seer I mean the Nondual Self not the witness, but yes I agree.
I’m trying to be as compassionate and direct as I can. Stop trying to understand this. Instead, focus your attention on what it is that is apparently perceiving a universe “out there”. What is it that is seeing? Hearing? Experiencing? Can you find it?
Yes that is the pathless path. As I said I know you are further along then I am, but the teachings and contemplations for me right now are just were I am at. I am not at the place where I can just Be without Shravana and Manana. While I like QM, I spend more time these days with Ramanas words, but the parallels with QM (for me) are inspiring because there of course can only be one ultimate reality, so it is logical and natural that science and spirituality be pointing in the same direction. This is something that is clear to me that Nonduality and QM do point in the same direction while Classical Physics and Dogmatic religions (seemingly) point in different directions.
Again I concede the menu is not the meal, the map is not the territory, the finger is not the moon, etc etc, but the contemplations of these higher truths help me with Nididhyasana.
If you use your mind to understand reality, you won’t understand either your mind or reality. If you study reality without using your mind, you’ll understand both. Seen with true vision, form isn’t simply form, because form depends on mind. And mind isn’t simply form because mind depends on form. Mind and form create and negate each other. The mind and the world are opposites, and vision arises where they meet. When your mind doesn’t stir inside, the world doesn’t stir outside. When the world and the mind are both transparent, this is true vision. And such understanding is true understanding. Understanding without understanding is true understanding. And true understanding isn’t just understanding understanding. It’s also understanding not understanding. If you understand anything, you don’t understand. Only when you understand nothing is it true understanding. Understanding is neither understanding nor not understanding. Do you understand?
- Bodhidharuma
Love it!!
As for your website, feel free to continue to write about quantum physics. However, I beg you, please stop trying to understand non-duality. Just stop it.
My hope is that it will naturally fall away, just not there yet. I am doing my practice, and the glimpses that I have had are scents I am going in the right direction even if my path is meandering a bit.
Like an awakened friend of my said, sometimes the ego just needs to punch itself out to the point of exhaustion until it finally throws its hands in the air with surrender. He uses this metaphor to depict any seeker on any path, and the only good of seeking is to tire or exhaust the seeker so he/she just surrenders and stops seeking..lol.
[Vincent Shared this Funny Bob Newhart Video to Emphasize not to "Try" to understand Nonduality].
Just Stop It
Bryant,
You are trying to understand non-duality through the lens of quantum physics. Let it go. It is a fool’s quest. The only way to “understand" non-duality is to have an ego free moment. But that is not really understanding. (See the quote below.)
Point taken.
But isn't it a fools quest to "understand" non-duality at all..lol.
It is a direct “knowing”. This is what Ramana Maharshi meant by the words you quoted:
"If the ego comes into existence, everything comes into existence; if the ego does not exist, everything does not exist. [Hence] the ego itself is everything. Therefore, know that investigating what this [Ego] is alone is giving up everything.”
Without the mind that creates separation, what is there? All at once, the whole universe collapses into "just this”. That does not mean that there is suddenly no universe; and yet it does. There is no universe in the sense of a witness or observer looking out upon a universe. What is left is what you are; what the entire universe is.
I don't disagree here. The universe exists and doesn't exist. That is a paradox that of course the mind cannot understand.
So in that sense any talk about a collapsing wavefunction is futile, it just continues to make the most sense to speak of any apparent collapse as needing a subject-object ego. So in this light Ramana's teaching does have an analogue with QM. Not saying it is the same because as I concede, like you say, that we can only experience nonduality or the universal conscious (which is how I view the universal wavefunction as I take a consciousness only stance of QM).
However, attaching labels, such as the universe or consciousness, or ego, can only mislead.
Yes, but pointers are needed.
The paradox (at least for us human beings) is that our minds create the notion of a universe by creating the apparent separation between observer and observed. That is what Ramana was pointing to. Drop the self. Drop the ego. And the whole universe disappears. What is left can be considered a verb; not a noun.
Agree, Interestly I just wrote an post on how the Self is more a verb and not a noun. But a verb of nondoing that has no subject and no object (again analogous to operators in QM - action only). Most doings or action verbs connect subject and object, while "what is left" as you say, is a verb only (if even that but seems to me a better pointer). Even Ramana refused to be called a Jnani (which is a noun), he said there is no Jnani here, only Jnana (which is more a nondual verb).
So if the ego appears, everything appears (apparent collapse), if the ego does not exist, nothing appears.
Nothing appears because there is no separation between observer and observed. That is the point. You keep missing it. ‘You’ disappear; the ‘universe’ disappears. But eating will still occur when hungry. Sleeping will still occur when tired.
Yes I do agree, all this happens apparently for an apparent separate self.
I don't think there is any way to know what worms and birds actually see.
Of course not, they have their own interfaces.
Interfaces that I feel don't create an apparent collapse unless the interface creates a subject - object reality.
Perhaps animals do sense duality, i don't know? But I would say that worms unlikely do. Again I conceded i may be wrong
and I have also conceded you are correct in that the Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao, I just appreciate and I am inspired by the deep parallels (for me) between QM and Nondual philosophy - and again, I understand the philosophy is just words and QM is just equations, but they are powerful compasses that are better suited than limiting dogmatic beliefs and classical (objective) physics to point us in the right direction.
I still do my practice, I consider QM and Nonduality more as part of Shravana and Manana, not of course actual Nididhyasana.
Who is the Seer inside them?
There is no seer. However, there is seeing.
By Seer I mean the Nondual Self not the witness, but yes I agree.
I’m trying to be as compassionate and direct as I can. Stop trying to understand this. Instead, focus your attention on what it is that is apparently perceiving a universe “out there”. What is it that is seeing? Hearing? Experiencing? Can you find it?
Yes that is the pathless path. As I said I know you are further along then I am, but the teachings and contemplations for me right now are just were I am at. I am not at the place where I can just Be without Shravana and Manana. While I like QM, I spend more time these days with Ramanas words, but the parallels with QM (for me) are inspiring because there of course can only be one ultimate reality, so it is logical and natural that science and spirituality be pointing in the same direction. This is something that is clear to me that Nonduality and QM do point in the same direction while Classical Physics and Dogmatic religions (seemingly) point in different directions.
Again I concede the menu is not the meal, the map is not the territory, the finger is not the moon, etc etc, but the contemplations of these higher truths help me with Nididhyasana.
If you use your mind to understand reality, you won’t understand either your mind or reality. If you study reality without using your mind, you’ll understand both. Seen with true vision, form isn’t simply form, because form depends on mind. And mind isn’t simply form because mind depends on form. Mind and form create and negate each other. The mind and the world are opposites, and vision arises where they meet. When your mind doesn’t stir inside, the world doesn’t stir outside. When the world and the mind are both transparent, this is true vision. And such understanding is true understanding. Understanding without understanding is true understanding. And true understanding isn’t just understanding understanding. It’s also understanding not understanding. If you understand anything, you don’t understand. Only when you understand nothing is it true understanding. Understanding is neither understanding nor not understanding. Do you understand?
- Bodhidharuma
Love it!!
As for your website, feel free to continue to write about quantum physics. However, I beg you, please stop trying to understand non-duality. Just stop it.
My hope is that it will naturally fall away, just not there yet. I am doing my practice, and the glimpses that I have had are scents I am going in the right direction even if my path is meandering a bit.
Like an awakened friend of my said, sometimes the ego just needs to punch itself out to the point of exhaustion until it finally throws its hands in the air with surrender. He uses this metaphor to depict any seeker on any path, and the only good of seeking is to tire or exhaust the seeker so he/she just surrenders and stops seeking..lol.
[Vincent Shared this Funny Bob Newhart Video to Emphasize not to "Try" to understand Nonduality].
Just Stop It
Vincents Final Reply
Like you, from the perspective of the self, I’m fascinated by QM, cosmology, and astronomy. So many paradoxes exist in the world of relativity. And yes, there are parallels between QM and non-duality. What I am encouraging is the meditative exploration of what it is you are, which it appears you are doing. Keep it up. Keep in mind that there is nothing to gain. Awakening is not something that occurs to the self; it is your a priori true nature; and it is usually glimpsed or realized when the self falls away.
A great quote: What you are looking with is what you are looking for.
The real work is in clearing out of the conditioned patterns. These are what bind us to an external reality (through our thoughts) and lead to dukka (suffering; stress; dis-ease).
Like you, from the perspective of the self, I’m fascinated by QM, cosmology, and astronomy. So many paradoxes exist in the world of relativity. And yes, there are parallels between QM and non-duality. What I am encouraging is the meditative exploration of what it is you are, which it appears you are doing. Keep it up. Keep in mind that there is nothing to gain. Awakening is not something that occurs to the self; it is your a priori true nature; and it is usually glimpsed or realized when the self falls away.
A great quote: What you are looking with is what you are looking for.
The real work is in clearing out of the conditioned patterns. These are what bind us to an external reality (through our thoughts) and lead to dukka (suffering; stress; dis-ease).
**[Bryant] A Few Concluding Points:
QM even if it was isomorphic with Non-dual philosophy, STILL does not explain the unexplainable. I was reading Ramana today and he said something to the effect, the light of awareness of the Self that illuminates the mind, can only be known directly. The mind can never understand this most intimate Presence that we truly are as it derives its light from the Self (paraphrasing from memory). Again the Tao that can be spoken is not the Eternal Tao.
I think I am perhaps trying to force a nonduality QM equivalence that really isn't there (at least fully). Because Who or What is it that tries to understand QM? QM cannot really say anything about the nondual Seer (as no theory or philosophy can).
But having said that, if I am going to attempt to create a bridge, using Ramana as a guiding light, I feel the Ego/Separate Self is the only meaningful way to describe any apparent Universal Wavefunction Collapse. This makes sense to my limited mind and I recognize it is NOT the REAL Truth, because all intellectual thoughts, no matter how seemingly sublime are still only modifications of awareness and never Awareness Itself.
I am very Grateful to Vincent for sharing in this dialogue, in which the greatest takeaway is that we cannot truly understand Nonduality OR Quantum Mechanics because understanding requires a mind to understand. Because our True Self is only "seen" or directly experienced with No Mind, the ultimate truth itself can never be understood.
QM even if it was isomorphic with Non-dual philosophy, STILL does not explain the unexplainable. I was reading Ramana today and he said something to the effect, the light of awareness of the Self that illuminates the mind, can only be known directly. The mind can never understand this most intimate Presence that we truly are as it derives its light from the Self (paraphrasing from memory). Again the Tao that can be spoken is not the Eternal Tao.
I think I am perhaps trying to force a nonduality QM equivalence that really isn't there (at least fully). Because Who or What is it that tries to understand QM? QM cannot really say anything about the nondual Seer (as no theory or philosophy can).
But having said that, if I am going to attempt to create a bridge, using Ramana as a guiding light, I feel the Ego/Separate Self is the only meaningful way to describe any apparent Universal Wavefunction Collapse. This makes sense to my limited mind and I recognize it is NOT the REAL Truth, because all intellectual thoughts, no matter how seemingly sublime are still only modifications of awareness and never Awareness Itself.
I am very Grateful to Vincent for sharing in this dialogue, in which the greatest takeaway is that we cannot truly understand Nonduality OR Quantum Mechanics because understanding requires a mind to understand. Because our True Self is only "seen" or directly experienced with No Mind, the ultimate truth itself can never be understood.